Why the SPIDER-MAN CLONE SAGA Sucks! 👎 || Comic Misconceptions || NerdSync
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Why the SPIDER-MAN CLONE SAGA Sucks! 👎 || Comic Misconceptions || NerdSync


This video is sponsored by the Nerdsync patreon Support the show over at patreon.com/nerdsync Clones! Did you guys see this? They’re putting clones back into Spider-Man comics Since when were clones ever a good idea? Oh hey, I like your tie [1,2,3] Thanks [4] I’m not wearing one Do we have any topic for this week? The video is already late I just need to know what we’re doing [4] Deadpool! No, bad Scott Anyone else? [3] Well I was thinking we could probably do something [2] What if we instead revisit one of our older episodes [Uncomprehensible] Guys Stop it, Guys! Hey Obviously This clone thing was a bad idea I mean sure It was good at first When there was just one of you helping me tell good stories But now, it has gotten to complicated There are too [4] Deadpool! Stop it! Ok All of you clones you gotta go I’m sorry It’s one or two can stay Sure The just the ones that the audience attached to We’ll figure it out later [1,2,3 Rolls eyes] [4] Ah [1,2,3] Shut up! (Nerdsync theme song) The clone saga [Table Drumming] Ugh, lets talk about it there probably groaning at the mention
of the words Clone Saga what you’d be perfectly justified in doing it’s not
uncommon for fans to see and it’s a collection of everything wrong with
marvel comics in the nineties or even just comics in general and in hindsight
sure it’s clear to see how much of a convoluted mess it was thing is don’t
really have a problem with it in the beginning its first six months the Clone
Saga was met with a great response the stories were interesting and even
beautifully sad shaping up to be one of the best spider-man stories ever told so what happened what went wrong and who
is responsible for all of it i wish i could tell you there’s just one thing
but it seems like the Clone Saga fell victim to a perfect storm of terrible
decisions incidents and happenstance that turned in otherwise promising event
into an enormous failure let’s take a look and see exactly how
that happened not in the plot of the story itself but behind the scenes at
Marvel believe or not the story actually starts way back in nineteen
seventy-three during one of the most famous spider-man stories ever told the
night gwen stacy died during this time Marvel’s then editor-in-chief Roy Thomas
along with writer gerry conway and inker john romita senior we’re trying to think
of ways to shake things up in spider-man comics a sentiment we will see repeated
later and so they decided to kill someone some big important character and
Peter Parker’s life that would leave the readers shocked and they had their
perfect targets Aunt May but ramita was against the idea he explained quote if
you kill Aunt May Peter Parker secret identity is not a problem anymore since
there’s no one for him to protect and you lose that whole teenage nerd factor
it didn’t matter how good looking he was or how well he was doing if his aunt was
still telling him to bring his umbrella whenever he went out into the rain
instead ramita pulled inspiration from an old comic strip called Terry and the
Pirates where readers were stunned after seeing the girlfriend of one of the main
characters die and so it was settled they were gonna kill when but not
without Stanley’s permission of course they asked him if it was
alright to kill her off and Stan gave them his blessing but once the story
it’s shelves fans everywhere were outraged how could they kill Gwen Stacy
how could stand let them see here’s the thing that you need to know about
Stanley he’s not always the best when it comes to telling the truth so even though conway and Thomas did get
his permission Stan publicly rejected the idea claiming that he would never
have allowed them to do such a thing if he knew about it in reality stand simply
hates when fans are mad at him so he deflects the blame in an attempt to
promote his own innocence but we felt that the fans were so outspoken that he
actually went out of his way to try and fix things he went back to gerry conway
and demanded that he bringing when Stacy back into the comics somehow she didn’t
have to stay for longer become a main character again but she at least had to
come back in some capacity so Conway unwillingly created the first Clone Saga
see the one from the nineties was actually the second Clone Saga the first
one back in the seventies help set it up and introduced the character of the
jackal the previously established science professor named miles Warren who
was infatuated with Gwen Stacy upset over her death and in his grief resolved
to clone her but that wasn’t the only clone jackal created oh no just to make
the story interesting he also created a clone of Peter Parker that you team up
to take down the jackal until a bomb detonates seemingly killing jackal and
one of the spider-men the apparently dead Spidey’s reason to be the clone in
the living one is the peat that we all know and love but it was left ambiguous
unintentionally so actually as Conway recalls it was never his intention to
imply that the surviving Spidey was the clone and the real Pete is dead he never
believed in a million years that Marvel would tell that story yeah so about that flash forward to the mid-1990s when
comics were getting a little darker are happy and fun wall-crawler was thrown
into the ring with much more intense and traumatic events that we never seen
before he just wasn’t the same and Marvel wanted to shake things up again DC comics was selling record sales
with events like Batman nightfall and the death of superman Marvel decided
they needed to fire back with their own big event and no ideas were off the
table everyone just started shouting things
out enter Terry Cavanagh who pitched a pretty straightforward idea what if we
bring back the spider-man clone from the seventies the idea was quickly dismissed
and everyone moved on but Cavanaugh was adamant and further explain his pitch in
a following writers meeting he wasn’t saying to just bring the clone back for
another story he was saying what is this whole time we had things backwards the
clone that comes back is the real Peter Parker and spider-man we’ve been
following since the seventies that’s the clone that idea would actually be pretty
brilliant Marvel could say that the dark and brooding Spiderman was simply a
clone while the fun and energetic one readers longed-for from before was still
out there in the marvel universe as Cavanaugh said quote as the writers grew
older and got married and had kids and got mortgages we sort of wrote
spider-man that way and wrote him away from our audience this was a way to get him back to his
essence organically without divorcing him which would just give him more
baggage and quote that was the plan clear up spider-man’s history and bring
him back to how he used to be the writers at the meeting could hardly
contain their excitement after they realized all of the possibilities it was a scary idea to take on sure but
ultimately a thrilling experience for the writers when editor-in-chief Tom
DeFalco came in to shut the project down he was so overwhelmed by the writers
enthusiasm that it not only convinced him to do the story but also to become
the new writer of spectacular spider-man but as editor mark bernardo stated quote
ironically the whole storyline which was supposed to simplify spider-man’s Methos
and ultimately bring him back to basics ended up complicating everything beyond
what anyone imagine the original concept for the story was pretty straightforward
Peters clone would come back going by the name Ben Reilly forged by combining
been from Uncle Ben and Riley which was in maize maiden name over the next six
months it would be revealed that Ben Reilly was the real spider-man Peter Parker was the clone meanwhile
Mary Jane would become pregnant which would give Peter incentive to retire as
spider-man after all with great power comes great responsibility and what
greater responsibility is there than raising a child and teaching him or
heard be a good and decent human being . MJ would walk off into the sunset with
their child will Ben Reilly regained the mental of spider-man permanently clean
and simple no need to complicate things well here
is where the first bit of confusion comes in you remember how tom defalco
was against the idea and told everyone to shut it down when he finally agreed
he had one condition quote here’s a secret when I finally ok
the Clone Saga I told editor Danny finger off to build a backdoor into it I
said that I wanted to be able to bring Peter back as the real deal i believe
that both comic book creators and comic book fans are cowardly and superstitious
lot while the fans claim they want change they tend to react negatively to
it so the most creators with this in mind we agreed that Peter was the real
guy but that we wouldn’t let the spider team trying to convince the readers
otherwise if the spider creators succeeded they would love the idea of the old
switcheroo if they failed they be so happy that they had a back door either way the readers were guaranteed a
great story with a lot of unexpected twists and quote so essentially because
they were already expecting fan outrage they had to build in a loophole to
basically undo everything to say that Peter was the clone and Ben Reilly was
the real deal but then to immediately say now just kidding but even this idea
was thrown out after Marvel saw some radical editorial shifts if you recall
from our previous video about the comic-book crash in the nineties comic
books crashed in the nineties speculators we’re seeing how much Golden
Age comic books are being result for and started buying loads of current comics
hoping to sell them later to make a profit problem was that Golden Age
comics valuable because they were rare comics from major publishers in the
nineties were printed hundreds of thousands of times speculators realize this and the market
fell out part Marvel was in serious financial troubles
and it wasn’t helping that there was hardly any cooperation between the sales
team and the editorial staff the people who kept the numbers wanted more control
with the creatives didn’t want to relinquish any especially DiFalco who
expressed an attitude of if we’re making good books i don’t care if they sell
poorly i’m not gonna let some marketing and sales people tell us how to make
comics hoping to get the company back on track then president of Marvel teri
Stewart put into action initiative that would take power away from the editorial
staff and give more power to the sales and marketing team this restructuring of
the company was called the Marvel Lucien editor in chief DiFalco was effectively
fired and in his place where not one not two but five new editors-in-chief that
would each handle their own corner of the Marvel Universe and report directly
to Stuart the five sectors were spider-man x-men marvel classic which
was mostly Avengers and fantastic for Marvel edge all the gritty characters
and marvel entertainment for all their license properties in an attempt to
unify the company all Marvel Lucien did was split its further apart one editor
said quote it would have been easier to have spider-man team-up with Superman
and spider-man team-up with the x-men this big editorial shake-up happened
right in the middle of the Clone Saga this meant that the overall vision of
the story was lost as new editors came in with their own ideas and with the
sales team more integrated with the creative side they kept demanding for
writers to drag out the story so that they could sell more comics and make
more money remember this whole ordeal was only supposed to last six months at
the most and come to a conclusion an amazing spider-man 400 but as sales
demanded extensions to the story the plot for this issue was changed instead
of ending the Clone Saga ASM 400 featured a wonderfully moving story by
JM de Matisse where an Aunt May revealed that she had known Peter for spider-man
for quite some time one moment later and mates help finally
gave out and she died it’s a beautiful comment that serves as
a reminder that not everything that amount of the Clone Saga was awful fun
fact they also got Stanley’s permission to kill Aunt May which he gave only to
once again tonight when he saw the fan reactions tho classic stand in addition
to story extensions the sales department also demanded more clones to classic
case of higher up seeing good sales numbers and wrongly attributed their
success to one simple thing it’s probably not the gripping story or the
beautiful character developmental masterfully drawn artwork it’s clones we
need more clones all of the clones and while we’re at it let’s get more already
superhero movies in here because Deadpool did so well rights yeah this is when we got stories like
maximum clones which featured more spider-man clones in the world ever
needed this was once again a proposed ending for the Clone Saga that was
supposed to tie up a bunch of loose ends and establish Ben Reilly is the
one-and-only spider-man but funny thing happened Marvel Lucien had split up all
the Marvel properties which created a sense of competition between them Bob Harris the editor-in-chief of the
x-men corner of the MU saw how great spider-man Clone Saga was doing
initially and reacted oh my god the spider-man books are gonna
rock it past the x-men once we have to have our own event like now thus began the long and drawn-out Age of
Apocalypse storyline throughout all of the x-men titles when maximum cloning
was being written the sales department really loved her age of apocalypse was
generating enormous numbers by making their story overly long and spread out
so the spider-man editor-in-chief body and ski essentially told his team to
copy that recipe so in effect the clone socket took inspiration from age of
apocalypse which took inspiration from the Clone Saga is apparently the Marvel
HQ is housed in an echo chamber instead of tying up loose ends and bringing the
Clone Saga to a close maximum clone is just complicated things and continue to
prolong the resolution story that was supposed to last few months that ended
up lasting over two years and the writers still had no idea how they were
gonna end it one idea was that neither Peter Parker
or Ben Reilly was a clone they were both the original spider-man simply stuck in
a time loop Spidey would go back in time become Ben
Reilly progress forward in time until he met up with Peter Parker again would
then go back in time become Ben Reilly and
the cycle continues this way all the spider-man tail since the beginning
still happened to Peter not some clone and it would also establish peter is the
one-and-only spider-man once again and the villainous mastermind behind this
whole scheme none other than my fist oh yes Fisto as the solution to a
convoluted spider-man story funny how that works at ultimately while
the editorial staff was on board for this time loop idea the writers were
adamantly against it writer Dan Jurgens from hated Ben Reilly
put an ultimatum in place Peter Parker had to remain the real spider-man just
been Riley is the true spider-man business had to go Ben would die
heroically of course Peter would become Spidey again and let’s just resolve this
now and quickly and if not Jergens would quit even this simple solution was made
sloppy with how complicated the story had become MJ was still pregnant with
Peters child originally they were supposed to go
settle down well then became spider-man again but with Peter cementing himself
as the true webhead the writers had to well they had to deal deal with the baby
and their eyes you couldn’t have a superhero with the kid obviously we know
now that that’s a bit of an overreaction either way the decision was made that
Mary Jane would have a miscarriage solutions to the Clone Saga are being
thrown around left and right no one was on the same page and body and ski who
was supposed to be in charge couldn’t decide on any one direction indecisive
from crisis to crisis frustrating everyone who was working on the story
finally booty and ski and Jergens wrote a story that would reveal who was behind
this whole Clone Saga nonsense and end this miserable journey once and for all they introduced a new villain named
gaunt would be revealed to be none other than the presumed dead Harry Osborn he
would be the new mastermind behind it all plans were laid out clues were in place
but then wouldn’t you know it Marvel reorganize the company yet again
did away with the five editors in chief and named Bob Harris as the one
and only DIC overall of Marvel Comics remember Harris was previously in charge
of the x-men section so when he oversaw all of Marvel he still put x-men first
right around the time when the spider-man team was about to make the
big reveal that Harry was the mastermind behind the whole Clone Saga and finally
bring this message to an end Harris told the spider-man team to yet
again postponed the finale because he didn’t want to overshadow a big x-men
event presumably onslaught was happening right around the same time so the Harry
Osborn reveal was out this further delay of the Clone Saga is resolution
infuriated Jergens who made true on his promise and quit thanks to layoffs and Marvel booty and
ski was on his way out as well but before he left he wrote a memo he didn’t
know who would be made the true villain of the Clone Saga but there was one
character he was strongly against quote Norman Osborn’s death should never be
undone in my opinion it’s two classic let him rest in peace of course with booty and ski out of the
picture Harris decided that the one person who had the money resources the
connections the knowledge and the motivation to orchestrate the Clone Saga
and disrupt Peter Parker’s life to such a profound extent was none other than or
is Norman Osborn problem was as funny ascii pointed out he was kind of dead at
the time famously so during the night gwen stacy died the comic that started
this whole mess but Harris didn’t care Norman Osborn was the only character
that made sense in this scenario even if he’s supposed to be dead so as what
happened at this point i’m sure many riders were happy just to end the Clone
Saga once and for all and move on the reveal was written up and in 1997 the
Clone Saga was finally laid to rest there’s obviously a lot more to this
story than we covered in this video i highly recommend checking out the life
of Riley 35 part blog series to find out more that is linked down in the
description below along with a bunch more links and sources you should
definitely check out what do you guys think about all this was there any one
person or one decision that made the Clone Saga of failure or was it a
barrage of bad luck but could have saved it if
anything let’s talk about it all in the comments
and I’ll address some of your thoughts on monday during our show tales from the
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100 Comments

  • Neblin275

    I like the clone saga as a concept with some interesting twists, and Scarlett Spider and Kane are some of my favorite characters, but to hear the full extent of this arc and the production hell that was behind it is interesting and disappointing

  • Baron Zemo Returns

    Washington cannot be left alone to his devices
    15:42
    The best thing he can do for the revolution is to turn back to planting seeds in mountain Vernon

  • P Gaven

    You are Amazing brother thanks for your YouTube channel..as a long time comics fan…and nephew of a longtime former Marvel employee..I had no idea about what went on behind the scenes then.

  • John Cody

    At least the clone saga at first was a legitimate attempt to end the Peter Parker story, unlike say death of superman which was a straight publicity stunt in the end. Also Ben Reilly's costume is one of my favorites so at least that came out of it.

  • T.

    This whole tantrum from DeFalco is kinda ironic considering he almost wasted the Hobgoblin saga… x)

    I'm beginning to think he was some comic industry Uwe Boll !

  • Joshua Wood

    That would've been SUCH a cool twist having Ben Reilly as the real Spider-Man/Peter Parker. The original concept DEFINITELY had potential. It really sucks that things turned out the way they did, because I LOVE the idea.

  • J M

    God I loved this Saga! I know it could have been better…I know it went a little too nutz but I LOVED Ben Rielly. Not the crazy homicidal Ben Rielly Marvel brought back but the original! The most fond memories of my Spider-Man comic stint was with Ben and his supporting cast! And after Ben and Peter moving on after him, it just felt like such growth and…the real deal! Not the resets and forever childish Peter we have now.

  • Diogo Silva Carvalho

    I remember the first time I read this saga. When it was revealed that Scarlet Spider was the real Peter Parker, I actually felt I had been fooled all the previous years I read about the "clone" Spider-man. So overall I don't think this was a very good idea, no matter the good intentions. I was glad they corrected it afterwards. And personally I never had issues with the married Spider-man, so at least at that time I didn't think Spider-man needed to go through any major changes.

  • Gaby George

    I remember when something like this happened in Young Justice, only it was done far better and everyone was happy: Roy Harper’s Clone had a daughter with Cheshire, while the Real Roy Harper got to reinvent himself as the dark, angsty Arsenal.

    The biggest difference is that the Real Roy went into a coma for five years, while Clone-Roy started a family during said five years (and knew that he was a clone for nearly as long)

  • Tim Carder

    i grew up during the clone saga, and was a young adult towards it's "end" (nothing ever truly ends in comics), and i must be an anomaly , because i "really" liked it, and followed almost all the books, except a few tie ins….

    beauty is in the eye of the beholder people

    ….i also liked Kyle Raynors green lantern, and all the x-men branch offs…i keep this open mindedness in tv, movies and games as well

    i try not to be a weak minded opinionated…..ummmm?…..well….suffice it to say, i don't allow the opinion of others, direct or colour my own…i am not a sheep (or in this case, a lemming)

    have a good day folks
    and read what you want…purely for your own entertainment

  • vampman87

    Funny how most of the changes and shakeups in the Clone Saga got retconned as time progressed (Ex. Doctor Octopus ended up coming back after Kaine, the First Clone, killed him and the writers replaced him with a female Dock Ock.) but the one thing that remained constant for going on over 20 years was that Norman Osborn, whose revival was considered the worst idea in the Saga, is very much alive and is by far and wide considered to be Spider-man's worst enemy. Ever since his resurrection he's basically acted as the Final Boss to most multi-year stories. He tried to gain ultimate power at the end of Amazing Spider-man's first run in the late 90s, he was the mastermind behind Menace at the midpoint of the Brand New Day era, his supposed child was the target of all the Spider-man villains in the Brand New Day era, he led a huge Goblin siege on New York City at the end of Superior Spider-man, and he merged with the Carnage symbiote to become the Red Goblin in Amazing Spider-man 798-800, the final few books that Dan Slott, the chief writer of Spider-man post-One More Day, wrote. Bringing back Norman Osborn was probably, in the long run, the best thing the Clone Saga did… Any thoughts about bringing back Kaine and Ben Reilly and having them basically share the title of Scarlet Spider?

  • lowell houser

    Story should have lasted six months before confirming Peter as the true Spiderman and shipping Ben Reily off to the New Warriors.

  • Paul

    I wish they had committed to Ben being the real Peter. It gives the mj Peter fanboys a satisfying end to that relationship, but real Peter who died when Gwen did didn't have a chance to move on. They should have doubled down in the beginning and explored the consequences on Peter's character instead of trying to roll him back.

  • TriangularOrb

    I watched this to remember when and why I quit reading Spider Man comics during that story line — I remember feeling bored and angry about how crappy this storyline was compared to the Carnage one which was the big story arc before this. Age of Apocalypse was awesome! Unfortunately, the Onslaught story line ruined X-Men for me, and combined with my anger at the Clone Saga made me give up on Marvel altogether.

  • Furness Prime

    The Ben Reily series is the only set of comics I ever bought as a kid— so the Scarlet Spider has always been a huge favourite for me.

  • Justin Land

    Spidercide, Kain, and Scarlet Spider were some of my favorite characters as a kid. I really enjoyed the clone saga, you make some fair points, but I think a more apt vid title might be "why the clone saga was absolutely bonkers", because I wouldn't say it sucks.

  • the night hAunter f88k the 1%!! PRIVACY OR gen8cide

    universe="must clone saga,must clone saga,clone saga must continue,must continue,clone saga must continue…".

  • aquinoguh

    I loved this video because I always wanted to read The Clone Saga but I didn't found anywhere to buy in my country
    also loved because I understood every word you said, and english is not my native language ♥️

  • rainytales

    My version of maximum clonage:

    (All the Spider-Men look at each other) (all point at each other and yelling)
    Me: it is very rude to point

  • Mickey Holiday

    It's amazing how marvel still has not learnt their lesson. Though most of the new movies are great, true fans, the ones who read comics when it was not considered cool, are We are seeing stuff like this to day with the current X-Men, Death Pool, and Spiderman movies. All these legalities and greed causes great stories to be corrupted or lost.

  • The Goddamn Batman

    I have a feeling they got the idea also from the Spider-Man 60's TV series and the episode Double Identity….. which is the episode that has the famous meme of 2 Spider-Men pointing at each other.

  • The Goddamn Batman

    ASM #400 is the best part of the clone saga. Everything else… yeah…. Glad I have 2 copies that are worth nothing. Yay.

  • thejokersonyou

    I was 13-15 at the time, and hated it frm day1. Spiderman was my primary book, far and away. DC was hot garbage in terms of sales/popularity… so never even looked that direction. This whole thing (which was about 2 yrs)… and the fact that I was getting older pushed me away from comics for a couple yrs. The guy you've been following as your super hero of choice to follow (comic purchase) maaaaaaaay not be the actual guy you thought. And thats the primary story, not villains… for 2yrs… Yea… that makes sense as a great plan… smmfh

  • locodesert 2

    he's probably never going to respond but how long did it take him to film the skit? like that must've been a pain to shot and perfect.

  • BlazeLenza Gaming

    I read ultimate Spider-Man and the clone saga in that one was pretty good so for a long time I never understood the hate for the clone saga

  • Magnus Prime

    I’m not sure how I would save the Clone Saga, but I do know two things: I would have ended it before 8 months had passed, and I wouldn’t have killed Peter and MJ’s child. That part in particular infuriates me. Leaving aside just how dark and depressing that is, it’s obvious that it was done solely because they were afraid of Peter aging. To which I say: “Oh, well then maybe YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE WRITTEN IN A PREGNANCY IN THE FIRST PLACE! And frankly, that fear is ridiculous considering that Peter graduated high school before Steve Ditko even left the book.

  • lacewing

    frankly letting him have his kid would have helped.
    I know during this timeframe I started leaving marvel and reading more DC. All the every summer drawn out saga that spanned more comics than my pocketbook could, the constantly changing writers and artists as well as randomly dropping characters I was following just made me lose interest. It felt like they were no longer telling stories but trying to get into my wallet… which it seems..
    they were.
    But hell the good thing that came, I got way more serious into writing my own stories and years later, I'm finally going to be publishing my first book.
    So.. yay I guess lol

  • Gregory Bogosian

    I wish they had killed Aunt May instead of Gwen. Ditch the secret identity and the teen aged nerd angle and have peter grow up into a mature and functioning adult. The slogan is "with great power comes great responsibility." So have Peter accept all the responsibilities of adulthood.

  • ThatoneSonicFan

    I like the original draft of the clone saga.
    Scarlet Spider becoming the new official Spider-Man and Peter Parker becoming a family man would of been the perfect ending for Peter.

  • Francisco Dá F

    That clone saga was the end of the series of spidey, because after that they couldnt get it right anymore. Then, along came a mouse.

  • Raid Omenite

    The colon saga does not suck it's awesome and it's my favorite comics the only thing that sucks is what happen to Ben Reilly.

  • AAWW Productions

    Looking at the comic villains that are smart and rich, there are multiple others that could've done it, including Kingpin, Doc Ock, and Dr. Doom. I don't know who was around(aka who was dead or hadn't been created) at the time, but they could've picked anyone. Mostly anyone, anyhow.

  • Vince

    15:42 When I heard the unexpected Hamilton reference, I almost screeched. (Got four hours of sleep last night, and it caught me off guard, lmaoo)

  • Willems Pierre

    I swear to God, the Spiderman Clone Saga is what actually made me stop reading comic books back in the day…. Swear to God!

  • VXMasterson

    Wait I'm still so confused
    So was the father of the baby Peter or Ben? Was it really the clone acting as Peter the whole time?

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